There are thousands of books on leadership. And yet, new ones seem to appear all the time. Why is that? What makes leadership so difficult? Kevin Van der Straeten from Eventplanner asks leadership expert Bart Provost.
The video in 5 takeaways
- As a leader, take into account the 3 resistances of your employees when you propose something: 1) I don't understand it 2) I don't want it 3) I don't trust it/you
- Connect with your employee sincerely and authentically. Ask how they are doing, share what is on your mind, and do not be afraid to talk about feelings.
- Authentic vulnerability is a strength, not a weakness.
- The framework determines the entire leadership relationship with your employee. It is both the starting point and the endpoint.
- Negotiate a win-win solution (a win for you and a win for them), rather than unilaterally imposing a proposal.
Transcript
Hello Bart, welcome to the studio.
My pleasure, thank you for the invitation.
As I mentioned in the intro to this conversation: there are many books on leadership. Many grand theories. But as the managing director of, for example, an event agency, or an event organizer with ten to fifteen employees—an SME—what does that mean for my leadership?
How can I actually apply that?
Yes, that is a very fascinating question. Because, ultimately…
And I completely agree with you. No matter how beautiful the big books, models, and theories are. And no matter how strong…
And by the way, I might give you an insight. If you find a leadership model somewhere that shares the same foundations as other models, then it is a solid model. The moment you find a model that says: all other models are wrong and mine is right, then you should start to doubt it. So, a good model—the proof of a good model—is actually that multiple models share the same starting points.
Now, having those beautiful books, models, and theories is one thing. But how are you going to put it into practice? Because that is part of what I hear behind your question.
Yes, it is that translation that makes it difficult.
And then it really depends on how you look at it. It’s as if you put on a pair of glasses, a Google Glass, with a kind of enhanced reality. A kind of deeper layer of reality being projected. Then you have to look and see: well, what am I observing?
That is also a question I often ask in training sessions: yes, but what are you running into? And that is different for every leader.
Yes, that can range from people who cannot inspire their staff, or where employees don’t even listen in some cases. That is the worst example, I think, that you can have.
To: how do I get more motivation in my team? And everything in between, probably.
Yes, and then of course you arrive at that very beautiful thing.
Welcome all business owners and leaders to the club of real people. And know that all the people you manage also have a membership card in their pocket. So, nothing human is foreign to us.
And very often you will see that leaders cannot even estimate the effect of their own actions on their employees. So, that is already a first important piece.
Because they don't know themselves well? Or because they don't know the employee well?
Both. It can be both. It is an and/or story.
But so, if you put on those Google Glass and you say: okay, now I’m going to look at what is happening here.
Can it then predict everything you need to do? Or…
That would be very nice, yes. Many courses, many books, and many theories.
All in the glasses.
All in the glasses.
Actually, the more models you have, the more models you know, the richer the variety on those Google Glass becomes. And then it also allows you to look from a distance and see: oh, but what is happening? For example, I have given an assignment. I said: you are going to get a different interpretation of your role. And it’s really great, it’s really tailored to you. And this is the new role description, so you can let go of a large part of what you did before. We’ll park that with Peggy. But you get to do this new thing. And you see, actually, the employee’s lip starts to curl. The shoulders drop a bit and: ah, okay.
All the fun work: gone.
So really the opposite of.
And what do you often see then? That leaders feel like: come on, you’ll be able to do it. Or: come on, let’s not start like that. I mean: it’s time for some change, and so on. But that says more about the leader’s own values and beliefs.
So, very concretely, step one is: know yourself. And I often say to leaders: yes, but you are in a certain position because you think about things in a certain way. Do not assume that everyone else who is not in your leadership chair has the same beliefs. Because otherwise, they would be sitting there and not just you. So, that is a very important one. To know that people sitting in that chair think about things in a different way.
You could compare it to a tree with many monkeys in it. The higher you sit on the branches in the tree, the broader your view. So, maybe you know: yes, if I say now, go down. Go eat. Go gather nuts and berries. But I forget to mention that there happen to be three lionesses on the hunt. Well, then I might not see some of my fellow monkeys again.
So, in that sense: by definition, because of my leadership position, I have a different view of the field of work than my employee. And I also reached that position for certain reasons. If we don’t want to acknowledge that and cannot recognize and acknowledge ourselves in that—that we have different values, different beliefs—well, perhaps the same values, but in a different way—than our employee, then we are already on the wrong track.
So, a much better step at that moment is to say: wait. Just a behavioral description. Oh, I see your face dropping. And your shoulders. You’re slumping. While I thought you would be shouting with joy. Explain it to me. What is going on?
Just understanding more about what is concretely…
If we are being very honest now. There is an assignment that is not being executed, or not executed well enough. What is a leader going to do?
Very often get angry.
Yes, or they will address that man or woman. Give feedback. And why is this happening, and so on.
Yes, it's just not acceptable that you're not doing this well.
Absolutely, yes.
And so it becomes: yes, what do you need to do this better, and so on. While you are actually missing two major, important steps at that moment.
One: did you ever actually get commitment from your employee? The real commitment of: yes, I want to do this. I’ll sign for it. In blood if necessary. Like: yes, I want to go for it. That is the yes-factor. The piece of motivation you spoke about earlier.
And a second piece that is very much forgotten. That is actually the first step. We’ll go back in reverse order in a moment.
The first step that is very often forgotten is really connecting: tell me, Peter, hearing me say this, what does it do to you? Getting a new role like this?
Well, I don’t know if it makes me happy.
Oh, that surprises me. Because I did this to actually challenge you a bit. Because you said back then that you were looking for new challenges. Gosh, so apparently I’ve done something that isn’t the challenge you wanted to have in your work. Tell me. And that is what they call connection.
So very often we do indeed, just as you say, push for the execution of the task. Saying: no, it’s the execution of the task. What do you need? Why isn’t it good? Why isn’t the result as I expected? While we actually never got the commitment. And actually never really connected with each other.
Now, in large companies, Bart, I follow that completely. There you indeed have a lot of freedom: everyone has their own capacities. Everyone has their preferences. Where do you want to go in your career? And so you try to get the right people in the right place. Not just for you, but also for those people themselves.
A small company with three people is much harder. Precisely because you have less of a playing field. There are simply certain things that must happen.
Yes, absolutely. And that’s why, if you want to get commitment from someone, you can look for it. You can even call it a bit of negotiation. Saying: okay, but what do you find important in the work? And what do I find important in the work?
And then someone can say: yes, I find it important for myself, you know…
Because we are here in a beautiful corner of Flanders. Suppose someone says: I would like to be able to work from home four days a week. Then I don’t have to stand in traffic every day.
We're not that far in a corner, Bart.
No, it’s not too bad.
But actually, leaders get these kinds of questions regularly. People saying: yes, I want to work from home a bit more. Because that is good for work-life balance.
We are actually coming back to the conversation we had a few episodes ago. About win-win.
You are essentially applying that technique here as well.
To look at: okay...
What do you mean by that?
If that employee suddenly wants to start knitting scarves, then that might become difficult in the context of the company.
Yes, because ultimately: we are here to make this company grow and flourish. So, that is the starting point.
So, what you do is actually say much more: look, this is the framework. I want to connect with you very much. I want to hear from you what is holding you back. And there too, it is very interesting to know: what holds people back? Those are resistances. We will probably get to that in a moment.
But if you then look at that piece: okay, how do you want to do the things you want to do in your career? And is this possible within this company?
If someone says: yes, I actually want to take on more leadership capacities tomorrow. Within your three-person company. I’m sorry, dear Peter, but this is the framework within which we work. We are a three-person company. And for the time being, it doesn’t look like we’re going to grow to 300 tomorrow. In one year’s time. So I won’t be able to offer you that opportunity.
Let’s go back to the framework. Within that framework: you want more challenge. How can you, within that framework, have more challenge? And then you are back to the conversation every time.
And sometimes I see leaders floundering a bit. Saying: yes, then I’ll soon have to give in to everyone working five days out of five from home. For the work-life balance.
No. Because you start from the framework.
Yes, because that doesn't always make it easy, does it? You have an employee who you know is perfectly capable of working 4/5ths from home. Within that framework, that's perfectly possible. But next to them is someone of whom you say: well, they can't do that. And they're going to want it too.
Yes. And then suddenly you're a bad leader.
Yes, and then it’s again a matter of being very honest. Saying: look, what is important to me is that the quality of the work delivered is within certain margins. Within the margins of acceptability. What is important to me is that I can trust that…
And I don’t notice that enough with you at the moment. So, before you would be allowed to work from home for a few days, I want certain things to be put in order. I actually need to be able to see that first. Because for me it is important that I can trust you in that. And that I can trust you in the sense that both the quality and the quantity are completed as they should be. So how are we going to do that together…
Then you are back to negotiating with each other. How are you going to manage that, to get me on board with your plan to also work from home four days out of five? Back to the framework every time, right.
Now, when I think about leadership, I spontaneously think of the great, visionary business leaders. An Elon Musk. The late Steve Jobs. A kind of icon that everyone looks up to and willingly follows en masse. Because they are so inspiring. Is that only for large companies? Or can you do that as a leader on a small scale too?
Yes, you have to ask yourself to what extent those kinds of stories are hyped up to help support the overall brand.
Because you don’t want to talk to the young lady who was fired by Steve Jobs in the elevator on the way to his office. Because he asked her: and what do you do here in the company? She explained in two sentences what she did and then he said: so we don’t need you.
So, to what extent are those stories hyped?
Yes, that's not really great leadership either...
Elon Musk, a man who then seems to sleep two hours a night. Or three hours a night. Well, if he sends you a text message at four in the morning and wants you to respond immediately. Whether that makes you happy or not.
So, I want to move away from the hype a bit. Where some people are really put on a…
On a, yes, what they call…
Put on a pedestal.
Put on a pedestal. I was going to use the beautiful French-Flemish word, a ‘piëdestal’.
But if people are effectively placed on a pedestal, well…
So, that is one thing. You have to set that aside for a moment. But I do want to go to the question behind it. Like: what makes people go through fire for you? And that is a very…
It is in itself a very beautiful story. A very nice comparison with ten thousand years ago.
What happened ten thousand years ago? We lived together in our clan, in our small club. And there we moved from one place to another. Hunting and looking for food. And what happened? Everyone looked after each other. And the leader looked after the group very much. And that is of course a very different story.
If you compare it with today’s companies. Where big managers are actually rewarded with a bonus, potentially. By ensuring that the company itself remains very healthy, financially. But if that is at the expense of the people working under him or her, then so be it. That is of course a different starting point.
When do you get people so loyal that they want to go with you? So loyal that they indeed want to, figuratively, sacrifice themselves for you? When you do the same for them. And that is a very important piece. The fact of creating a bit of openness there. Consulting with each other and seeing: okay, what are your fears? What are your doubts? What are your concerns? And I’m going to indicate to you that I’m willing to think about those with you.
That is going to make people feel much more: okay, I feel safe with you. Because if I can’t trust you, ten thousand years ago. That, when I’m sleeping near the campfire. And you are standing guard outside our village. For the saber-toothed tiger that is coming. If I can’t trust that. Well, what are we doing then.
But is that then what Brené Brown says so beautifully about vulnerability? As a leader, also daring to be vulnerable. If there is difficult news to tell, also just admitting that you yourself find it difficult.
Yes, but for some reason we have all learned—I don't know how that ended up in our society—to hide exactly those kinds of things.
Of course, yes. Because the facade is much more important. While—and you can bet your life on it—people see through that facade flawlessly. See through it flawlessly. Immediately feel: hm, something isn’t being said here. And those are also the resistances I want to talk to you about in a moment.
It is the fact—and Brené Brown calls it courage—but actually it is intentional vulnerability. If you know you could be hurt and you do it anyway, then we call that courage. Like a soldier. Who knows he can be shot and yet he goes.
The firefighter who knows the building could collapse on his head. And yet he goes inside to save people. That we call courage.
So, you know you can be hurt and yet you do it. And then we meet each other as human beings. There is nothing as powerful as connection between people. When it is on the level of: I’m opening my heart and soul to you completely for a moment. That’s not therapy where you actually then: oh yes…
Because I’ve seen that too: leaders who take that idea with them. Ah, but it’s good. I’m going to start crying every time. The moment I have to tell something. Or really say: I had a very difficult weekend. And things are going so badly in my marriage. Well, who cares? You know? That is totally not important.
It’s about you daring to say, as a leader: look, I’m facing a difficult decision. Either the company goes under, or we really have to save €120,000 in costs right now. In the short term, and by that I mean in three months’ time. Instead of then saying: well, I’ve thought about it for a long time and yes, it will be very hard for you, but two out of four have to go. Well, hello! That is very little vulnerability.
If, on the other hand, you can say: look, I don’t know how to handle it. I haven’t slept for nights because of this. And my first…
Yes, but recently...
Which CEO was it who handled it like that? Gosh, who was it again? They told a story like that, but they didn't mean a word of it. And that was ten times worse, of course.
After guidance, coaching, training, or whatever. Or having read a book. Oh, now I’m going to quickly do this.
I'm going to use those phrases for a bit, yes.
And who you are.
And who you are. And that is a very different thing. Absolutely.
Now, you've already said twice, Bart, that you want to say something about resistance. I don't know what question I should ask, because I don't know what you want to tell me about it.
Because that’s the first thing you asked: yes, imagine an employee doesn’t do what they are supposed to do.
Yes, that's pretty much the essence of what it's about.
Or isn’t motivated. And doesn’t become happy, despite your attempts to make it so.
What is the reason for that? Well, there you actually have…
You could say: all resistances can be grouped. In three different places. And it is important, as a leader, to know that. Because then you also know that you have to dare to go there. And have that vulnerability to go there. Saying: yes, look, I want to talk to you about that.
And the first resistance is at this level. And is about: look, I don’t get it. I don’t understand. I don’t know. I have too little knowledge. Why do we suddenly have to reorganize? I see no reason at all. Things are going fine as they are. So I’m missing a lot of information.
But you can provide that.
You can provide that. Absolutely, yes.
Know also that a lot of those kinds of arguments are actually about one of these two as well. So that is very often put on the table by the employee. Or formulated in that way. But actually, it’s often about this too. This goes very far. Not just the reasons why you make a decision, but this is also about: yes, okay, this is the background information that you don’t have. Some information you obviously don’t have to share, from your position.
Suppose as a business owner you say: well, at the moment, I’ve already had to sell my own private house to…
If you feel that is not relevant to the employee, okay, then you don’t have to put it on the table. But it is about: look, this is how I see it. This is how things stand. This is what we have to achieve. We have two major customers and that has to happen all at once. And we only have so many people. For example. That kind of information you must give.
The second resistance cluster is actually: I don’t want it. I don’t feel like it. I’m not motivated to do this. And I actually don’t want to. No. There is something in me that says: no. No. So I have a resistance in terms of the will.
The third, somewhat the most dangerous, is about the guts, the intestines. Like: I don’t trust it. Or: I don’t trust you. I don’t trust that you are a good leader. ‘You got what it takes’, as they say in English. That you effectively have what is needed to lead me well, and all the people well. In this phase, in this company, in this department. Or: I don’t trust the hat you’re wearing now. Because you’re now just a spokesperson for the big management. And those guys just want to collect their bonus at the end of the fiscal year by quickly cutting costs.
And they don't care about us.
They absolutely don’t care about us. These are things that…
This, it’s still okay. You already have to dig quite a bit. But getting this on the table? That can only happen if you really connect with people. And so, there again: that piece of vulnerability of: okay.
Because how are you going to do that? Just let someone come and say: I think that you, in this phase of crisis, are not competent to lead us through it. I don’t trust you as captain of our ship, in the middle of this hurricane here. I don’t trust your skill. How many leaders would dare to be open to that? That is difficult.
Daring to be open to it is one thing. But what you then have to do with it?
Yes, in the first place a conversation. Okay, wait. Well, that hits home. You can also perfectly share with yourself what that does: that hits home. Can you then tell me why? Why you think that? What things have you seen in me, or what things are missing when you look at me, in my leadership? Which gives you the impression that I wouldn’t be able to lead you through this crisis? Yes, because of this, because of that, …
But then at least you are having a conversation. And you also understand what is going on with the other person.
And you can perhaps adjust those issues one by one, or explain them, or...
Or not. And that too is a part of daring to show that vulnerability.
Saying: yes, look, I don’t have an answer to this. I don’t know how I can. I would love to go to the higher management in Germany or England and say that I don’t want to fire anyone. And that I would rather let the solution come from the floor. But they don’t want that. So, I’m stuck there myself. I don’t really know how to handle it myself. I’m experiencing a major conflict within myself now. But yes, I’ve never experienced this before either. I don’t even know if there is a good way to do it. So, I don’t have an answer to your grievances either.
Perhaps in that way, you might actually get help then.
Yes, and if someone bared their soul a bit like that, saying: but can we find each other then? That would be the second step.
So, the first step: connection.
Second step you could say: okay, we want to go to commitment. To look there: yes, in this difficult period, where nothing is certain…
Because that is the framework from which we start. In this difficult period, where nothing is certain, well, do you feel up to being managed by me? But giving me regular feedback on how things come across to you? And whether I’m losing your trust more and more, or if you can still gain a bit more trust? What do you need to gain trust? Are you prepared to stay on board for the crisis we are entering now, the storm we are sailing straight into? Yes? With me at the helm. Do you feel up to that? Because that is the framework we are facing now.
And there too, it can sometimes be that you say: yes, I can’t help it either. I’m terribly sorry, but there’s nothing that can be done.
Look at a company like Nokia, which at one point was the top market leader in mobile phones. And then collapsed the moment smartphones arrived.
Yes, the market has changed, guys. We can’t do anything about that. That is the framework.
Yes, unless they had had a more open culture, of course. And thought about it beforehand.
Could have been.
Now, it’s easy to reason about it after the fact. True. It won’t have been down to leadership alone. But it’s those kinds of things that make things be discussed much more openly. People give their commitment. It’s also much more far-reaching. If you’ve first connected with them and then can move towards a commitment. Because that commitment then really comes from them.
And you can only get commitment if the three resistances have actually been overcome, one by one. So that’s the beauty of it.
